The Goal Achievement Podcast, hosted by Productivity Expert Matt East, is all about helping you find clarity, design a plan, and most importantly achieve your goals.

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Here’s the Amazon link to the book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1734794402 

The website for the book: www.timeoffbook.com

Max’s website: www.maxfrenzel.com

Connect with Matt East: www.Matt-East.com

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Can Time Off Fuel Your Productivity?

Podcast Transcription

Hey guys, it's Matt, I hope you're all doing really well. 

This is a really special episode because I get to interview a client of mine, his name is Max Frenzel and he is the author of a new book called: Time Off, the subtitle is: A Practical Guide for Building Your Rest Ethic and Finding Success Without Stress, and I just love Max and I can't wait to share this, I'm so proud of him, and the book is amazing, it's absolutely stunningly beautiful, it's one of the most beautiful books I have ever seen. 

So especially for a nonfiction book, I mean, it is absolutely beautiful, it's just stunning. So check it out, grab a copy of the book. We're going to talk today about why taking time off could be a competitive advantage for you and for the future of work. 

How taking time off can help fuel your creative work and your creative output. 

And we talk about some practical steps that everyone can implement right now for better time off, so I hope you guys love this, and that's it, enjoy the episode, here we go. 

The big question we all face every morning is this: How can we focus more time on the projects, activities, and relationships that are most important and meaningful to us and less time on the stuff that doesn't matter so we can actually move closer to our goals and dreams? 

That is the question, and this podcast is the answer. My name is Matt East and welcome to the Goal Achievement podcast. I'm so glad you're here, now let's dig in. 

Matt Welcome to the Goal Achievement podcast Max, thank you so much for joining me, I can't wait to dive in and chat with you, thanks so much for joining the podcast. 

Max Oh, thanks for having me. 

Matt Yeah, yeah... so I wanted to have you on because as you know, I feel like productivity isn't just about doing more for the sake of doing more, it's really the opposite, it's about having clarity about what you actually want to spend your time doing so that you can focus on the projects, activities, and relationships that are most important to you, and that includes being intentional with your leisure activities, your hobbies, your recreation, your vacations, your downtime, and just taking time for yourself. 

And you wrote a book that is kind of encompasses all that, so you wrote Time Off: A Practical Guide to Building Your Rest Ethic and Finding Success Without Stress. I'm so pumped to have you on, and I guess a good first question is, you know, what's, what's rest ethic? that's an interesting way of maybe saying, is it just rest or what is that? 

Max Yeah, that's a great question. So probably the first thing to say is, even though the title of the book is Time Off, it's really not a book about being lazy and just sitting at the beach with a cocktail of something. It's really about being, as you said, more conscious about how you use your time, and having a rest ethic is a really central concept in that, and actually, if you're up for it, let's try a little life experiment and invite the listeners to join us in as well if you up for it. 

Matt Oh, yeah. 

Max So let's take a deep breath in and then actually hold it until I say stop. OK, you ready? 

Matt Yeah, yeah. 

Max All right, take a deep breath in and I hold it, let's keep holding for a while, just a little bit, it might start getting uncomfortable. OK, let go. 

Max You could have probably held this a little bit longer, but the out-breath, I'm sure, felt really, really amazing. We like to think of the work ethic as this inhaled part, so work ethic is really going down your task list, executing projects, all this kind of stuff, that's the inhale part. But the problem is a lot of people forget the exhale and it just... walking around their lives with their breath held and it gets uncomfortable really, really quick and you start burning out. 

So what we want to advocate for is this idea for Rest Ethic, which is really the exhale part, it's ideation, it’s restoring your energy, really gathering more creative momentum again, and just like inhale and exhale are two really important balancing parts, so too are work ethic and rest ethic and just recognizing that rest is important and taking time off is important, that's not enough, but you actually need to treat it like work like if you don't put it in your calendar, you're not actually going to stick to it, you know, is not just going to magically appear this time off, but it's really so crucial because, well, especially for creative work, but even work in general busyness and productivity are very, very different things. And a lot of people pride themselves on the busyness part, but never actually pause to ask if all that busyness is getting them anywhere. 

And really, a lot of the great… the breakthroughs, especially in the creative area, which is more and more important for knowledge workers, those really require the taking a step back and incubating on ideas, and getting a fresh perspective. So we really encourage people to think about their rest ethic and as you said, is really all about being conscious of your use of time. 

Matt Yeah, it's amazing how those breakthroughs, you know, obviously I'm an entrepreneur and I'm generating income off of my ideas and I virtually never have a good idea sitting at my computer working. 

Max Totally. 

Matt When I'm out, you know, mowing the grass... 

Max Same. 

Matt Running or hiking or, you know, Rachel, I have been with this covid stuff. We have been doing tons of we have a little cabin away from the city, we've been doing a ton of... 

Max Awesome. 

Matt ... and I've had so many good ideas, I'm like, I cannot wait to go dive back into work now in an intense way because I'm having all these kinds of ideas and breakthroughs, as I'm just wondering, literally wandering aimlessly through the woods. So... 

Max That's amazing. 

Matt Yeah, so did you come up with the... the... the actual phrase rest ethic? Is that a phrase you came up with? 

Max I think we came up with this one thing I should mention, I wrote this book with a friend of mine, John Fitch, based in Austin, Texas and I think he actually came up with that term, although I don't think it's an original term, it might have been around for a while, it might have even picked it up subconsciously somewhere. 

Matt Sure, sure... totally, totally makes sense. 

Matt So, yeah, awesome, awesome. 

Matt And we should mention, too, just for the audience knows, like, we sound very friendly because Max is a client of mine, so kind of through the writing process, he has been a digital... so I do some digital coaching, some digital productivity coaching. And I should mention, you know, you mentioned right off the bat that rest isn't about just sitting on the beach, wouldn't... although I would also encourage that occasionally. But... 

Max Absolutely. 

Matt It's... it's more than that, and it's about getting stuff done, and you are a beast at actually getting stuff done. So I do want to mention that to everybody and that, you know, we're definitely not just promoting... 

Max Absolutely. 

Matt Doing absolutely nothing all the time, but... but it's a good you know, occasionally it can really benefit you and your productivity. 

Max Yeah, and actually, also, one thing to add to that. Leisure is not just the rest and the downtime part like even work, if you approach it right, can be like leisure. So one thing we talk about in the book is this idea of noble leisure, which goes back to Aristotle for him, rest was very, very different from leisure because rest... rest always asks the question and rest for what? And usually, the answer is for more work, so rest is just there for the sake of work. 

But he saw that then work is there for the sake of leisure, and leisure is really at the highest in this hierarchy, and what was leisure to Aristotle was really anything that gives you meaning in life, so if your work really fills your life with meaning, then that totally counts as noble leisure in that sense, me working on that book was definitely work, but it was also extremely meaningful to me and it was really leisure time away from my main job. 

And there's another concept or various different types of concepts that we touched on in the book but they will fall under this idea of using one project you're really passionate about to get some distance from another project. So for example philosopher Soren Kierkegaard, he called this idea of mental crop rotation. 

So like in agriculture, you plant different things on a field every year to have the soil recover, so too like mental pursuits, you can focus on one thing for a week, then switch to another one and have your mental soil recover in a way. So it's really not just about relaxing but even work. If you approach in the right way, an unconscious way can be leisure. 

Matt And something I really admire about kind of watching you from afar is you have an incredible ability to get into deep work rather quickly and multiple times a day, well because and let me explain myself because you have, you know, a lot of times your focus for the day would be some bookwork and even some really deep I don't know if I'd call engineering work, but data, you know, some data, analyzation type work. Both of those things are very, very varied, they're not surface either, deep work. And do you feel like you're intentional time off has allowed you to be better at that deep work when it comes time? 

Max Absolutely. 

A) Because I balance it with a lot of proper leisure and good kinds of time off, I think I can go much, much deeper when it actually counts, and really, I think a lot of people are sort of always kind of half on and half off their hovering somewhere in the middle, a lot of us have lost the ability to really switch off when we don't need to do anything and then really switch on as well when it actually counts. So I think that's definitely one thing, one point we're really taking time off seriously has helped me. 

But also using time off to distance myself consciously from these things, because a lot of them are very well deep, as you say, and also very creative and I think creativity is really about connecting very distant dots, like very decent ideas. If you're always with your head in the material, it's very, very hard to see these distant connections, but if you actually take time off and do something in between, or work on something else, that's exactly as you said, like in your downtime, then those sudden ideas suddenly pop up because your subconscious mind really makes those bigger connections. 

So I like to divide my day into several parts, usually my morning while I was really deep into writing the book, the mornings until noon were really reserved for the writing process. I get up, make a coffee read for a while, that's another really important thing for me, the day always starts with reading, and then after that, I get two or three hours lock-in for just focusing on writing. Then I maybe cook lunch, go somewhere, eat something, sit in another coffee shop and then switch maybe to my day job, which is more research engineering side. 

But even that I like to break up with walks or making myself a coffee or just this little daily rituals or I really love baking, so I'm working from home a lot now, definitely during this whole career a situation, but even if it's not happening and I found it really is amazing like baking is such a great break up of your working day because there's a little bit to do which really needs some focus, like needing the dough folding it, and then you have this one hour stretch, where the dough is resting, and you can really dive deep into some work. And then I know, OK, now I've got to go back to my dough and it kind of gives me this well, mental incubation, mental fermentation almost, and it's a nice cycle is it really helped me a lot, and there's lots of these little things that if you spread them through the day consciously, it can really boost your creativity and productivity. 

Matt So when you were doing some research for the book, did you find some examples of where like or some interesting examples of people using downtime or time off to, you know, further drive their creativity or their productivity. 

Max Absolutely, so the book is really full of examples of people who found success, not in spite of practicing time off, but they actually used time off as a very key tool toward success. So to give you an idea, the book is actually split into different deep dive chapters, so there's a chapter on sleep, there's a chapter on creativity, the chapter on solitude, on play, on travel, and so on, and then within those chapters, there's the main text. But in between are also profiles of people famous and less famous and historic as well as present, who found success with that very particular type of time off, it's a little bit of the story and at the end is always a very practical advice to the reader. 

So how can you actually put that into practice? 

So, I mean, there's about 50 such examples in the book, I think, but I can just tell you about a few:

Hermann Hesse was a really big famous German novelist and poet he won a Nobel Prize in literature think and he wrote some of my favorite novels as well, Siddhartha is a wonderful book, and in a sense, he actually advocated for this idea of what we now call in the book Time of Micro Dosing so it's really these little things in between, so he said something like someone who for the first time on his way to work, picks up a flower, has really made a big step towards joy in life, and this idea of just pausing a little bit and just picking up a flower, it seems so simple, but it's really, really powerful is something everyone can do immediately, you just need to become more conscious. 

Bertrand Russell, similarly, he was actually very outspoken about the importance of leisure and also encouraging people to save some energy from their day jobs to spend on leisure and he was really saying, put it in your calendar. I mean, he didn't quite say in those words it was before Google calendars, but we essentially translate that into modern terms. If it's not in your calendar, it doesn't count, so schedule your leisure activity just like you would your work activities and maybe a more modern example, which I like it's from my Ph.D. adviser, Terry Rudolph, So he's a quantum physicist he now runs a quantum computing startup in Palo Alto, company is now 100 people but the whole idea of time off and deep work is so at the core of what they're doing and he has his interesting advice, how he uses running. So he's a runner and if he wants to just clear his mind, he goes for a really, really hard run. He says he can't do meditation, but this hard run is for him basically the same it's the same effect he does trail running, so if he goes hard, he really has to focus, OK, where to put my feet and he can't think of anything else. 

But he also has a different mode of running for that he sits down before the run and makes a little list or just thinks through a particular problem that he wants to think through on the run and he actually uses the run as a chance to think through it but the interesting thing there is he doesn't have any distraction or any tools there's no access to the Internet, he can't just look things up, he can't even take notes. So he says it's very it really changes the way he thinks about problems, it gives him, this again, bigger and different perspective because he has to keep everything in his head simultaneously and can't write down a note or look up a little detail. 

So I really encourage people to try these things as well, consciously getting away from distractions, but also useful... tools that are most of the time useful. It can be very interesting if you force yourself into a different way of thinking, so those are just a few examples there's many, many more in the book. 

Matt I love it, I love it, I love the idea of intentionality... I was, I've done a lot of trail running and used some trail running to solve problems, but I've never thought about it intentionally like that. I really would focus like sometimes you just randomly have a, you know, an idea pop up as you're kind of experiencing a runner's high. But I've never really thought to head out with intentionality of solving a specific problem, that's amazing. 

Max Even a walk can do if people are not into running, just thinking about a problem, you want to think for half an hour or however long you're out and actually committing to thinking about that is really interesting. 

Matt How did you plan to write this with a coauthor? 

Max It just kind of happened. I never really planned it, to be honest, so if you would have told me, I don't know three years ago that I would be publishing a book now, I was probably told you you're crazy. Basically doing my Ph.D. I had super... I had so much freedom and I got a lot of stuff done in a very, very leisurely way but then afterward I went into an AI startup and suddenly it became more and more busy without feeling productive and one day it hit me, hey, something's wrong, what happened? What changed? And that's when I started writing about the whole thing. I started writing a medium initially not many people read it, but over time it actually became quite popular. Some of my articles and my coauthor now also found some of my articles and he was doing a podcast at the same time about exactly this topic. So he asked me, hey, do you want to come on the podcast? And I did that and we became friends over time and one day he asked me, hey, do you want to write this book together? And that's kind of how the whole thing started. 

Matt Is that podcast still around? 

Max It is still around, it's also called Time Off. 

Matt OK, wonderful, that's great, cool. Have you been on that podcast? 

Max I have been on that podcast, that's what kicked the whole thing off really. 

Matt No, no, I mean like promoting the book. 

Max No, we've not been promoting the book there too much yet. 

Matt But you will. 

Max Yes. 

Matt OK, awesome. Will you let me know when that episode goes live? I'll share that on my website. 

Max Awesome. 

Matt Awesome, what else about the book writing process like surprised you. Did anything surprise you? 

Max Definitely I mean, it's my first book, it was both of our first... for both of us it's the first book, and I guess the interesting thing, like the first draft was ready maybe October last year and at the time it felt OK, now the book is done, but anyone who has actually published a book will tell you, no, no, no, that's maybe 20 percent of the writing process done. We send it, we send it off to an editor, and we had an absolutely amazing editor, Ann Mainard, she's absolutely wonderful two months later so the manuscript came back with her comments, and basically, she asked us to completely rewrite the whole thing, like take everything apart, reassemble in a new way, throw away most of it well, not most of it, but a good chunk, the initial draft was over 100000 words. The final draft is now at around 80000 words, but a lot of it was thrown out in the process and rewritten. So I think just how much happens during editing that was very interesting inside and also the big influence editors have on good books, I never realized before actually working with an editor. 

Matt Now, did... when you got that initial feedback where you kind of tore into it. Were you discouraged or like encouraged or what were you feeling? 

Max That's a good question, I think we both knew at the time that there is so much that could be improved, but also the way she presented it was not just, OK, you have to just redo that whole thing, but it was OK I can see the bits that are really, really good we just need to repackage it, and this is how are we going to do it? So because she really saw clearly the gems that were hidden in there and how to connect them in a right way, it was very, very motivating because we could then see, OK, that makes total sense, and once we actually do what you're saying, this is going to be so much better than what it is right now. So I think it was actually very motivating. 

Matt And her name was 

Max Ann Maynard, she works for Command +Z Content or Command Z as you guys like to say, 

Matt OK, and you... how did you hunt her down? 

Max I think we actually found her online through someone else who wrote about his writing process, I'm trying to remember who it was, I'd like to say James Altucher, but I'm I might be confusing that. But anyway, it was some... someone blogging about their writing process and how they work with Ann and it sounded really good. So we reached out to her, scheduled a call, and it immediately clicked like we knew, OK, we really want to work with Ann and it was definitely the best decision we made in the writing process. 

Matt And then I've seen the book and it is just absolutely stunningly like visually it's just beautiful, where did that all like where did you start to decide? Like, I want this to be a visually, you know, like, gorgeous piece of art, essentially, as opposed to just a typical book? 

Max Well, it's again, kind of funny story, actually, it happened by coincidence, more or less... Very early on, we knew that the book is going to be well, that is going to have a lot of profiles of people in there and we thought it would be very nice if we could have very beautiful illustrations of those people so we decided to look for an illustrator and both John and I went on Instagram and just post a story, hey, does anyone have a good illustrator they could recommend for this book project we're working on? 

And someone reached out to me who I never met personally about this illustrator, Maria Suzuki, also Maria doesn't know this third person personally, it's just someone who happens to follow both of us anyway, she recommended Maria to me, I reached out to Maria, we connected. Illustration was a perfect fit for the book and funny enough, we actually share a lot of mutual friends here in Tokyo so after we got connected through this random person on Instagram, we realized we actually very closely connected. Anyway, her style is absolutely wonderful it's these very light pencil sketches and it just fits the idea of time off perfectly, it's very light, it's very airy. There's a lot of white space and really invites you to pause and just look at those illustrations for a while and get lost in them a little bit. 

Matt And I can vouch, man they are beautiful. 

Max Thank you. 

Matt Just stunning, the book is just really impressive. 

Max Yeah. I can't wait to get it into reader's hands. 

Matt Yeah and the date that goes live is the 25th of May, which were exactly a little bit prior to that, but it'll go live on the 25th of May, which if you're listening to this, it's go time, go grab a copy. 

Max Absolutely. 

Matt So anything else, as far as you had mentioned, a couple of very practical steps people can take or implement right now, but is there any other stuff that people could take away and they could, like, do today to help with their time off? 

Max I think the key thing I'd like to ask people is just... and you probably totally agree with this... To be more conscious of how you spend your time and also think about the times where you're busy and are those really the times where you feel the most accomplished, chances are it's not. So really reassess what brings you meaning and what brings you joy and how you line your time with that and if you might want to rethink your time a little bit, also schedule time for, well, deliberate downtime. 

And I'm actually curious, if you don't mind me asking in your coaching I know for working with you you really encourage people to schedule time off and use that as one of their key priorities for the day. I'm wondering, have you seen any particular types of time off that the people found particularly valuable? 

Matt Oh, that's a really interesting question. So, you know, this is totally off the cuff without looking at the data but I would say what I've noticed with people being more intentional, you know, occasionally they'll be a really big switch for somebody mentally, it usually doesn't happen right away, it's like 60 to 90 days into the process of once they're really building the muscle of prioritizing each day and they'll be like a dawning that, you know, maybe somebody, some guy that, like helps with dinner with like the kids and his wife, who has always looked at that, is like a rushed activity, and like there can be a dawning where he's like, you know, I think I'm going to prioritize the dinner tonight and instead of cooking in 20 minutes I'm going to cook for like an hour and a half and actually enjoy the whole process. 

And when there is that, like switch from this frantic activity of like getting dinner ready for the kids and for the family and it being like a complete rushed, you know, chaotic mess to like, hold on, I'm going to prioritize this, and at seven o'clock tonight or six thirty tonight, I'm going to start cooking and I'm going to serve dinner around eight o'clock and I'm going to enjoy every second of that process, and when somebody has that and, you know, that's just an example that's something that's happened really recently with a client and they have that dawning that this can be kind of enjoyable time off and they could enjoy that hour and a half of cooking and working with food and talking to their kids as they're cooking and maybe, you know, having a glass of wine or something and just really embracing it, you know, like doing a total 180 and just really embracing all of those tasks and actions associated with that meal, as opposed to just, you know, rushing through it, that's the beauty, that's the you know, I never pushed somebody there. 

But when that breakthrough comes, it's always just a really refreshing it's just I don't know it's huge, it's it's massive, I mean, I can... that's life-changing for somebody, and... so that's something that I notice a lot with clients when they have that breakthrough from like a dreaded activity to hold on maybe I need to draw this activity out, and if it's not rushed and if it's, you know, how can I make this? I ask the question a lot in my coaching. What would this look like if it were easy? You know what it... what is, what is cooking dinner look like? If it were easy. 

And maybe sometimes it's not, you know, maybe it's the opposite maybe it's that, you know, somebody you hire somebody to cook or you have it brought in or something, I don't know. But I do like to ask people, you know, if it's a big struggle or a point of contention, you know, that's interesting and then, you know, I have clients who... I have a client who works six months out of the year intense he does a lot of... obviously, my coaching is always confidential unless I get permission but he does some very intense planning for a like Fortune 10 company, and he plans events and executes those events for six months out of the year, and then for that next six months, he's 100 percent an author and he usually picks a... a kind of interesting destination and he hunkers down and he just writes and basically takes time off for six months. I mean, it's amazing and yeah, it's... it's amazing. 

Max Yeah, I think the examples you're showing are great and also they highlight one thing we really believe in, there's no one size fits all approach of time off and it can happen at any scale from the micro-short, like picking up a flower to really multi-month or multi-year sabbatical and everyone can find their own style somewhere in between or mix and match different things. 

I think also one thing actually I'd like to ask people is to I mean, it's not an easy thing, but at least becoming conscious of it stop feeling guilty about not being busy because we have this really deep ingrained guiltiness of not working, even though it's not effective. But really, we need to allow ourselves to step back and accept that actually, that's going to lead to much, much better results I mean, I work in A.I. and I'm very positive about the future and what A.I. brings for all of us, even though there might be some difficulties in between. But none of us is going to out busy the machines in those different tasks, so you should really start to focus on a more human values like creativity and empathy and all of those really, really require taking time off seriously. 

Matt Yeah and, you know, it kind of all comes together here, Max, because if you are struggling with the feeling that guilt associated with time off with which that is very common, a lot of people feel that the number one thing and you've mentioned this a couple of times on this interview if you are feeling guilt, you know, one of the... the number one tips to get around that or to not feel that is to schedule that time in your calendar and that can relieve a ton of that guilt. 

I tell a story in my book and that's very applicable to this, so I worked with a client who... She's an executive for a large company, you know, professional sea level, made a ton of money, lived in a gorgeous, gorgeous home, and she built a beautiful house and she wanted to sit on her back deck in the evenings and, you know, you kind of overlooked the wooded area and she wanted to drink a glass of wine and have a book and she said that's something that she wanted to do for like the last ten years, as she, you know, has been working and been focusing on like, OK, well, how often do you.... do you get to do that now? And she said, you know, I've done it a couple times and I was like a couple of times this week or a couple of times this weekend or like what? 

And she says, no, I've done it a couple of times since I've lived here and I was like, What? So and I was like, this is something you really want to do and, you know, this is somebody that gets stuff done I mean, she's amazing, she's a... I mean, she is a beast good at accomplishing what she sets out to do. So, you know, we put it on her calendar, you know, like whatever, it's 8:15 at night to 9 o'clock her job was to go sit on the back deck with a glass of red wine and read a book and... 

And it alleviated one hundred percent of the guilt and, you know, she travels a lot but when she's not traveling now, she hunkers down on the back deck, drinks a glass of wine and reads her book and I mean, it's been transformative just because she's been intentional with that and it's... It's become, it kind of gives her permission to use that time for relaxation and for a little downtime and it was, you know, nothing more than... than scheduling it and kind of getting to that mental space that, well, this is what I'm doing with this time right now. yeah, it's great. Well, it was so much fun this has been a great conversation... 

Max Absolutely I really enjoyed this. 

Matt I've loved it, so... Awesome you guys go out, grab this book, it's called Time Off and Max, man, it's been so much fun working with you, and I'm so proud of you that you've been able to... 

Max I also want to say thank you to you, because you've also been keeping me honest and really making sure I have my priorities every day right during the writing process. So thanks for your contribution to the book. 

Matt Well, I appreciate that. And that's that's definitely not necessary you've... You did this 100 percent and it's... It's an absolutely visually stunning book and the concepts in it are amazing and I'm so proud of you. I think it's, I really hope it catches on and I'll definitely help promote it once it's once we're off and running. OK, awesome. Max, see you later. 

Max Awesome, take care. 

Matt Thanks again. 

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Some of these coaches cost a couple grand. I mean, I have a package that costs 500 dollars a month, so this is 29 dollars a month. It's you can't beat it, it's less than a dollar a day, it's literally less than a buck a day. 

So, and we will communicate every single day in an app, it's awesome, it works. I've been doing this for a few years now, I know what I'm doing and I can help you, so it's, it's amazing, you would love it if you try it, you will love it. 

And it's 100 percent confidential, I always like to mention that. 

So there is no downside to giving it a shot, so try it. I bet you'll love it, and if you don't just cancel, no big deal relax, it's no... there's like, literally no downside to this, so give it a shot, you deserve it. 

You owe it to yourself to have some accountability, have somebody that cares. 

That's why I use a writing coach, I like having somebody that I pay to care about what I'm working on, so it's great, I highly recommend it and I think you guys would love it, and that's it. 

I hope you guys loved this episode and we'll chat again soon bye-bye.