David Allen on Productivity and Getting Things Done
The Goal Achievement Podcast, hosted by Productivity Expert Matt East, is all about helping you find clarity, design a plan, and most importantly achieve your goals.
David Allen discusses his latest book “The Getting Things Done Workbook: 10 Moves to Stress-Free Productivity”.
David Allen is one of the world’s most influential thinkers on productivity, he has 35 years of experience as a management consultant and executive coach. David’s bestselling book, the groundbreaking Getting Things Done: The Art of Stress-Free Productivity, has been published in thirty languages, TIME magazine called it as “the defining self-help business book of its time.” The “GTD” methodology it describes has become a global phenomenon, being taught by training companies in 60 countries. David, his company, and his partners are dedicated to teaching people how to stay relaxed and productive in our fast-paced world.
Shownotes:
Learn more about GTD
David Allen on Twitter @gtdguy
David Allen on The Goal Achievement Podcast
Podcast Transcription
Hey, guys, it's Matt. I hope you're all doing really, really well.
I know I owe a lot of listeners out there responses to listener questions. I've been asked a ton about the trip to Africa, so I'm going to do a full episode on that, but I'm just now getting back into the swing of things and I did an interview with David Allen on the Better Humans podcast, so I'm going to post it here for you guys to listen to.
But I promise I'm going to post an episode about the Africa trip and answer all your questions and it was amazing, by the way. But yeah, I want to share this interview I did with David Allen for the Better Humans podcast and I will record a specific new episode of the Goal Achievement podcast really, really, really soon, most likely over this weekend.
So that's it, guys. Hope you're all doing awesome and I can't wait to record that episode and connect with you guys, bye-bye.
Hey, guys, welcome to the Better Humans podcast. Thank you so much for joining me, I hope they're all doing really well. My name is Matt East, I'm your host, and I am recently back from a few weeks of being in Africa. So I was there on vacation just relaxing with Rachel and with some other family members, it was amazing. And if you want to hear more about that, I'm going to be sharing some details about that trip because I've been asked about it a bunch from not only listeners of this show, but mostly from the Goal Achievement podcast.
So that's my other podcast and if you're interested in and that trip, you want... if you're thinking of going to Africa or you're just curious I'm going to be sharing some details about that trip on my other podcast. So the Goal Achievement podcast, check it out I'll be releasing that episode in the next few days and Africa is amazing it was just tremendous. So, yeah, check that out in the next few days.
But on today's show, I get the opportunity to connect with the amazing David Allen. So if you're unfamiliar with David's work, David Allen is one of the world's most influential thinkers on productivity. He has over 35 years of experience as a management consultant and executive coach and his best-selling book, I'm sure many of you have read it in or at least heard of it, it's... It was really groundbreaking when it was originally published, it's called Getting Things Done The Art of Stress-Free Productivity and it's been published in over 30 languages, which is insane, and Time magazine calls it the defining self-help book of its time and getting things done is often referred to as GTD, so the GTD methodology, it's really become a global phenomenon and it's been taught by training companies in over 60 countries.
So David and his company and his partners are dedicated to teaching people how to stay relaxed and productive in our fast-paced world and I was given the opportunity to connect with David because he recently published an article for better humans, it's called How to Do a GTD Mine Sweep, and he did it in support of his most recent book, which is called The Getting Things Done workbook, which enhances the original by providing an accessible guide to the GTD methodology in a workbook form, definitely check it out.
And I hope you guys love this interview with David I just really think highly of him and if you haven't ever read Getting Things Done, definitely, definitely. Check it out. So here's my interview with David Allen I hope you guys love this one let me know what you think bye-bye.
Matt Welcome to the podcast, David, thank you so much for joining me. How are you doing?
David I'm terrific, Matt. Thanks for the invitation.
Matt Yeah, this is exciting for me I've followed your work forever, I'm a huge GTD fan, so I can't wait to get into this. So you recently published the Getting Things Done workbook I know this is something your... your audience has wanted for a long time, it's a practical step by step how-to guide that supplements, getting things done by providing details, the how-tos, and the practices to apply GTD more fully and easily in daily life.
So I've got to ask, what inspired the release of the workbook, David?
David Well, frankly, Matt, the... the Getting Things Done book itself, first Edition 2001, the new edition to 2015 is really daunting for a lot of people.
Matt Oh yeah.
David I didn't hold back, I didn't write it as a training tool, I wrote it as a manual, basically to catalog all of the best learnings and best practices that I uncovered, researched, tested, implemented with thousands of people over you know 2, 20, 30 years and I just put it all in there I didn't hold back so...
So because it's so daunting, I'm not a really good instructional designer, I'm not even a very good trainer, I'm a good presenter. But, you know, I can present and get people sort of engaged and hypnotized and motivated, but they walk out and don't do anything.
So you know, I've had to sort of listen to the experts in terms of behavior change, which is not my area of expertise. You know, I figured out the model, but I didn't figure out how to make it stick and how to get people to actually do it, even though it's simple to do, and so over all these years, we've just discovered a lot of people either are too daunted by the book just because it looks like a lot to do.
It's actually... it's actually not if you kind of follow instructions, pretty simple stuff, but it can certainly seem that way and so building a little more, lowering the barrier of entry for people to actually play, and the workbook is not really stepping down the methodology so much as it's giving people the real step by step you know, 10 moves essentially...
Hey do this move, it'll get you started to do this next move, it'll you know, you'll be on the right path and it really kind of takes people by the hand and makes it much easier, I think, for people to engage, that was the reason.
Matt Yeah, it's fantastic, as I already mentioned on the show, I know I mentioned to you in the preview as we were just talking that I'm a big GTD fan and but this is perfect. I've definitely recommended the book to probably almost hundreds of clients of mine, and there have been some that have felt overwhelmed by it and it seems like this would be a perfect spot for them to start with, as may be opposed to the actual the actual book.
Is that kind of who you thought would be perfect for?
David Yeah, it... I mean, frankly, the jury's out. I didn't know whether this kind of a thing would work, the only you know, I just know that you know, there have been some some some models that have worked really well, like the seven habits workbook, you know, after Stephen Covey's book and quite a number of other books that have done that and that have done very well.
So my publisher, Penguin, thought it would be a good idea and Brandon Hall, who's my co-author, who did a good bit of the heavy lifting, is an expert in e-learning, an expert in and sort of the learning curriculum itself and he showed up and sort of yank my chain he said, "David, really, we really ought to do a workbook."
And so I said, OK, a little bit kicking and screaming, because I hate to sort of step down the methodology, because the whole methodology is really quite a holistic model. And, you know, I never really wanted to do anything but give everybody the whole picture, live and learn.
Matt And now so in prepping for this interview, I read a quote from an article that was published in Fast Company where they interviewed you a few years back and there's a quote and you say:
"People assume that I'm hardworking, left brained, results oriented OCD, anal retentive kind of guy. In fact, the reason that I was attracted to this work was that it allowed me to be more creative, more spontaneous, freer, I'm a freedom guy".
And that's the end of the quote and I'm definitely a freedom guy, too. So I that quote kind of drew me in, but I'm interested.
What does it mean to you to be a freedom guy? And do you think that that surprises a lot of people?
David I think it probably does, I mean, especially the first edition of the book with me in a suit and tie on this cover and it was kind of targeted for the fast track professional in the corporate world because those are the majority of the clients over the last thirty years that kind of bought into what I was doing, they were the... they were the first people to experience this tsunami of email and overwhelm of digital, the digital world that was bringing to them and so they were and they were the... the hungriest and ripest audience, essentially.
So, you know, it was kind of targeted into that into that world but when people would meet me, they go, oh, God, you're nothing like what I thought you would be because I'm you know, I'm going to hang out kind of Lucy Goosey kind of guy, not a not a naturally organized guy, everybody thinks that I would be but, you know, I really you know, I guess I got into it you can say efficient as opposed to efficient and lazy to me are kind of synonymous you know, it's like I hate having to do extra work, I hate having to have thoughts twice, I hate having to redo things, I hate being distracted by stuff I can't finish when I think of it.
And so, you know, so my freedom is it can get a little subtle you know, I like... I like, you know, I've set it set it up so my you know, my own personal systems are set up so I never have to have a thought twice or rethink anything the same way twice. So that's... that's lazy, most people keep thinking, rethinking the same stuff over and over and over without making any progress or what they're thinking about, and that's a big waste of time and a huge, huge, huge pain in the butt.
So so that's you know, I sort of fell in love with empty space and clear space and, you know, and very much like, you know, the French chefs that say Mison plus, you know, before the French chefs start their evening meal, they make sure every single ingredient is ready, every single pot and pan is ready and the kitchen is spotless and ready to go because, you know, it's going to get crazy and so you have to, you know, as I say, your most creative when you have the freedom to make a mess, the problem is if you're in a mess, you can't make one.
So I discovered years ago that it's really nice to clean up so then you can you know, then you can have the freedom to get crazy then clean up again and get crazy again, so that's that's kind of more of my lifestyle. And I think I think most people can sort of relate to that as like to do any kind of like cooking or playing music or painting or... or anything. It's kind of like you need to kind of get your get all your stuff ready that gives you, you know, get the right gear, get the right costume, get the right stuff out, you know, so you can then you can enjoy the thing itself and the and the and the art of the craft itself.
Matt Yeah you mentioned space in there though just the word space and getting things done is, you know, it's often mistakenly thought of as a time management system and I've always thought of it more as like a workflow management system.
But I heard you reference it as I was prepping for this as more of a space management system. Does that still resonate with you or would you?
David Absolutely, no, I mean, how much time does it take to have a good idea? You know, zero. How much time does it take to be creative? Zero. How much time does it take to be present and loving with your kids and cooking spaghetti? zero, those things...
And yet most people would consider those kinds of the golden goodies, you know, being creative, being present, being strategic, being whatever and those don't require, they don't require time, they require space, they require a room in your head, in your psyche.
If you're wrapped around a meeting you had at two o'clock in the afternoon and it's six o'clock at night and you're still worried about what happened or what you're going to do about it or whatever it's hard to be present cooking spaghetti or tucking your kids into bed.
And so the whole thing is about what do you need to do to get stuff off your mind, which gives you then the room to use your mind for what it's really good for, which is, you know, accessing your intuitive intelligence, you want to make good decisions about your options. But as the cognitive scientists have figured out in the last ten or fifteen years and a lot of research basically I discovered 30 years ago, plus was that your head's just a crappy office.
And your head is for having ideas, but it's a terrible place to hold onto them, your brain did not evolve to remember and prioritize or manage relationships between more than four things. As soon as you try to attract more than four things just in your head, you're going to sub-optimize your cognitive process and they've now proven that.
Matt Well, you know, GTD can consist of five basic steps, as I see it, which is capture, clarify, organize, reflect and engage and capturing is a huge part of that and if you can work that stuff out of your head so you can actually use your brain to think instead of remembering, you're well on your way, huh?
David Exactly, you got it.
Matt And so we mentioned earlier kind of your quote about freedom, you're a freedom guy and part of that freedom was making a big move so you moved overseas to Amsterdam, right?
David Yeah and from where I'm speaking from right now yeah.
Matt Yeah, and from that, you moved from the United States.
What kind of inspired that move?
David Well, my wife and I don't have kids and we wanted a kind of a new adventure in our life. It was time for that and we looked at people slightly older than we were that looked a little more sedentary than we thought we'd be comfortable doing and we both have good health and good energy and we saw, you know, time for another adventure and so we and we wanted to get out of the US.
The US is very US-centric in its thinking, and we thought of ourselves always as kind of more global people and our my work and our work and the GTD work now spreading around the world is more of a global event and so we wanted to move out somewhere, you know, and could have been pretty much anywhere as long as I'm near an airport, given the work that I do and our work, was becoming much more virtual so it kind of didn't matter where we were.
But we loved Europe and we'd been to Amsterdam a couple of times before, but it could have been anywhere over here. But Amsterdam is just so great and once we were here, we just totally fell in love, even more so with it, and decided to stick around.
Matt So how long have you lived there now?
David Five years over... over five years.
Matt And you still own any property in the US or you just made the jump?
David No, no we got rid of we sold our office building, we sold our house, we gave away or sold everything. We had essentially lightened our footprint and sort of moved our center of gravity over here.
Matt Has that move been like better than expected? What you expected? Or more challenging than you expected? I mean, that's a big move
David All the above all, you know, it's things always are more complicated than you think. That's OK and there are a lot of hidden treasures in it and the process, so it was kind of all of that. But no, it was great just another project hey, moved to Amsterdam and yeah so, you know, there was a lot involved in it But it was good at it you know, I think, I think you need to do those kinds of things every once in a while, just kind of shake it up.
You know, to see things from totally different and a different perspective so it's been... it's been great and we love it. The lifestyle here is very much to our liking, the quality of life is really cool, it's a very outdoor place, people are out with their kids and their dogs and it's, and we haven't had a car since we've been here.
My wife and I both have two bicycles and, you know, it's a real bike place and... and, you know, there's just more art and music and culture here within, you know, within ten square miles and you can shake a stick at or ever take advantage of, so it's you know, it's and it's much more the center of my world than Santa Barbara was I mean, come on, California, Santa Barbara was great, though it's all kind of frying up out there now, you know.
But... But this is much more you know, I'm three hours from Moscow, an hour and a half from Milan, I'm forty-five minutes from London, you know, so this is really, really a very central place, given the work we're doing and where we like to go.
Matt What percentage of the year at this point do you have to travel for presentations and for your... for your work?
David Oh, it's Matt it just it's so ad hoc, sometimes I'm really kind of wall to wall sometimes, you know, I just did a global summit of GTD here in Amsterdam in June, which is a major two-year project and so I'm kind of... kind of decompressing from all that so I've been a little bit of a hiatus to have to travel much since then.
But, you know, upcoming, I've got two trips to Kiev in the Ukraine, I've got a master class I'm giving in Moscow, I have a... I'm going to Israel for a week we have a new licensee there, I'll be in Cyprus and we have a new licensee there and in the spring. So still moving around mostly supporting the you know, we have we have a whole process of licensing people, exclusive distributors of the GTD, training, and coaching now around the world.
And a lot of what I've been doing for the last two or three years has been supporting sort of our new partners in that regard and traveling to where they're doing and doing press and making sure people see these are the people we have certified, as you know, as master trainers of our work.
Matt Outstanding. So where's the best place for listeners to hunt you down at work and where should we send them?
David Well, our website gettingthingsdone.com you'll see an overview of what we're doing most of our work now, I'm not doing, I do sort of random keynotes and random things myself. But for the most part, we've now partnered with people delivering our trainings both publicly and as well as in-house.
And so we have if you go to our site and see, look under our partners, you'll see all over the world where we have partners that are delivering our trainings and our coaching. So in the US, we've partnered with Vital Smarts, a really great company out of that, sort of made their mark doing crucial conversations and... and doing that, and they wanted to add some more intellectual property to their portfolio, and so we met up with them and they were they're great folks. And so, you know, we've... we've sort of handed off to the US and Canada anyway, all of our trainings to them. So you'll see connections to all of that, you know, on our site, as well as some overviews of the methodology itself.
Matt When you originally published Getting Things Done, were you surprised at how aggressively it was adopted by people, or did you assume it would be or what was your expectation?
David Well, it was kind of a slow burn and, you know, I over all, over all these years, I've developed a kind of an approach which really works for me, which is high anticipation and no expectation. So, you know, I kind of like, well, I don't know, I just needed to write the book, I needed to get out of myself and get it into a manual in case I fell over, got run over by a bus at least, at least that had been captured.
I mean, it took me twenty-five years now to figure out what I'd figure it out and that it was unique and that nobody else could have done it and that it was bulletproof, and that no matter how much or to whatever degree anybody implements any of it, it improves their condition. And so I said, you know, that would be kind of selfish to hold it back.
And so I just wrote that I wrote the thing just to get it out there I had no idea what the uptake would be and it was a bit of a slow burn. You know, it started out pretty well, but it... it then started to get a lot of traction as it was spread around, that is as it got translated into all the different languages around the world.
Matt I mean it has to be meaningful sorry to cut you off, has to be meaningful for you to I mean, I was just reading some of the reviews and people are just so like, you know, I mean, people say it changed my life like one in five people are just like me and this completely changed my life and I mean, that has to be really rewarding for you.
David Oh, it's fabulous. Are you kidding? I mean, I've been really graced you know been blessed to have stumbled across something. Of course, you know, I paid my dues and it took me you know, I had thirty-five jobs by the time I was thirty-five, didn't know what I wanted to do when I grew up and sort of fumbled around and trying to find what was my niche, what was the thing that I can do that was unique and valuable for people.
And, and I... you know, I love helping people and educating people and being of service in a way so, so wonderful to actually have now created essentially a career and a whole lifestyle based upon something that, again, you know, it's not like running with scissors. It's, it's very good stuff and it's easy for people to do and it improves anybody's condition who does it. So you have a little chart of how many people every month are getting... lives are getting impacted by going through trainings and so forth, and it's just wonderful to have sort of wound up being able to do that.
Matt Awesome. So it looked like from my research, you can get this workbook pretty much any place where you shop for books. I mean, it's out there.
David Yeah, I think so and all, all the good. You know, I always like to champion local bookstores, you know, so anybody if you have a local bookstore, it's always great to support them. If not, you can always do the Amazon, you know, stuff if you can find it all there.
Matt All right, David, this is great, guys, if you've ever thought about implementing the GTD methodology, this is a great place to... to start or to enhance what the actual GTD book. So go check it out, buy it at your local bookstore.
Thank you so much, David, this was really fun for me, I've really admired your work from afar for a long time, and it was really fun to connect and pick your brain for a few minutes.
David Yeah, thanks Matt my pleasure, it was fun.
Matt You got it. Bye-bye.
Hey, guys, it's Matt again hope you loved that interview with David, he's a very thoughtful guy and a very smart guy, loved doing that interview with him, so hope you guys enjoyed it too, and give me a shout if you guys need anything. And like I mentioned, I'll be recording an episode full of listener questions really, really soon.
So thanks again guys and bye-bye.
